A couple of pilots and I have been comparing notes on static exits that have not been "loaded" or "have not loaded their grid". Essentially what this means is, knowing I have 2 static exits, I scan the location of the exits, bookmark them, but do not warp-to the exit (not even warp and stop).
What we have collectively seen is that these exits do not abide by their otherwise-mandated lifespan (i.e. Max Stable Time). For example, my static LowSec Exit, an A239, should have a max lifetime of 24 hours. However, the A239 static exit has persisted in the same scanning location for nearly 3 days now, having not warped-to the location and by doing so loading the grid.
It appears that the exit timer does not really start until/unless you load the grid for that particular exit. It will eventually respawn elsewhere in your w-space, seemingly according to standard respawn conventions of 4-6 days.
This in itself does not really mean that much, but when you combine this fact with the circumstantial evidence that, by not loading the exit WH grid, the corresponding K162 it would otherwise be opening to another system is not actually occurring, then it becomes relevant. If there are no K162's and you have not loaded grid for the statics, then essentially it seems your W-space is marooned. Nothing keeping incoming K162's from forming, but if true, you need not worry about constantly closing that nasty nullsec static exit as long as you never load it's grid.
For example, using the dotlan maps to monitor my system traffic, I have identified that if no incoming K162's form AND if I never load the grids for the 2 static exits, I never get outside pilot traffic. I have only been accessing my static C2 lately and I close the exit once I am done working the adjoining system. In many days I can account for all of the dotlan jumps in my w-space based on my own jumps.
Continuing to gather data, but if true, it could simplify WH exit management.
Fly Safe!
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I'm still new at this wormhole management business, having just setup a small tower in a C2 (just to learn what it's all about). How do you know if a wormhole you scan is indeed your static without travelling to it, let alone a K162? Also, I'm a little buggered at the task of rescanning the system every day. Is there any good way to do this without wanting to pull your hair out?
ReplyDeleteHrmm, that little fact will make me warp to any wormhole I find in a WH system with a POS in it from this point on. Being able to remove yourself from interaction with the rest of the games population = bad
ReplyDeleteSo in a nut shell what you are saying, if I was staying in my wh for an extended stay it is better for me not to probe out my static low sector exit U210 ? If I dont probe this out its corrosponding K162 exit in the low sector does not form. Wow if this is the case our operations in wh space could be adapted for a weekly run in and out and then the rest of the time just stay and work the wh in reletive safety. Very interesting
ReplyDeleteAwesome you finally had time to "prove" this theory.
ReplyDeleteThis will greatly effect the way we run our wormhole for sure.
Mick
A couple of thoughts. First, I'd be a bit worried about small sample size. Maybe you just got lucky? Maybe all the wars going on in nullsec have taken people's attention away from wh's?
ReplyDeleteSecond, I'm not a gamedev for EVE, but as a gamedev in general, it seems like a problem that needs to be fixed. Don't worry, I won't report you, just be aware that this might end up being fixed at some point in time, and that time might end up catching you by surprise.
I haven't tested this theory, largely because, once you get 2 entrances, you don't really have a choice but to randomly pick one to scan down and warp to.
ReplyDeleteSo far as I've found, there's no way to discover a wormhole's 'type' from Scanning distance.
Hope it works out for you though, cos that'd be a pretty awesome way to manage your traffic! :)
Plisken - yes, you have to warp-to the WH to assess it's classification (ex: A239 and look it up in the Wormhold DB, link top-right of blog). If it is not a K162, then see if the same classification respawns after it closes. If so, you have a static. Note what AU setting you needed to acquire a 100% warp-to signal (ex: with my skills I get a warp-to at 1AU for my C2 and .5AU for my LowSec exit) - in future respawns, you will then know which WH is which, even without warping to the exit.
ReplyDeleteTo rescan every day, simply bookmark every signature, then the next day, launch 4 probes, set to .5 AU, arrange in a standard overlapping + configuration and scan centered over every prior bookmark. That way you do not have to re-scan every sig from scratch.
Amarrahh - yep - it also pertains to maximizing safety while mining local 'roids (even though I do not mine). Mitigate risk...
Belemar - to each his/her own... Just pointing out how you can minimize risk.
Toldain - feel free to report anything you observe - this is not an exploit, but simply WH management.
Minuit - see above comment to plisken - in my case I can tell them apart by scan strength of the probes.
Plisken,
ReplyDeleteIf you have the Bookmarks from previous day, then all you need to do is launch 1 probe at .5AU and go to each BM to verify it is still present. I maintain a list of the Bookmarks with their names and just attach todays sig name to it. I then ignore that site.
For reference my Bookmark naming is like this "Grav05 1/16 name of site". This tells me it is the 5th grav site I have had, the day it spawned, and the name of the site. This is helpful in tracking the age of the spawn also.
If you already have the bookmark you dont need to pin it down to 100% again. Just verify it still exists and ignore it
Once you have all the knowns done you will have a list of whats new and needs scanned down.
This method also allows me to easily communicate with corp mates the statu of the hole and signatures.
As for needing to "know" what the WH is, you don't. As long as I only have 2 unknowns in system I know they are my statics. Once a third appears its time to fly to them and determine what they are and what I need to do about it.
Hope that helps.
Mick
Based upon my own experience and experimentation with my 2 statics in my wormhole, I can say that your theory appears to be correct. I've run experiments that are similar, with the same results. Barring a K162, if you have a wormhole you haven't loaded the grid on, no one will appear in your system, suggesting the K162 end of your statics won't appear until you warp to the originating end in your wormhole.
ReplyDeleteOf course, this isn't hard and fast proof, but I'd say it's pretty conclusive - and very valuable information for any WH resident.
Whether "wormhole management" or exploit, I agree with those who say this should be looked at by CCP, as I _think_ it wasn't there intent to allow someone to isolate their chosen WH system in such a way.
ReplyDeleteWonderful blog, by the way, I check it almost daily. Thanks for taking the time to record your adventures in EVE!
Well, thank you for all the strategies for dealing with naming and retracking signatures. My problem is I have a hard time seeing the "pins" in the system map. This is my first POS, and it's definitely a learning experience.
ReplyDeleteIn any event, it may not matter. My small POS went reinforced today while I was at work. I had put in 20hrs of stront, not totally understanding how the tower behaves when it's like that, so it'll come back online during UK primetime. I'll lose some stuff that's stored in the corp hangar If they logged off in system, but at least I can evac the few ships.
I'll keep a scanner alt logged off inside the WH, but I'm not expecting much.
I'd like to counter some of the arguments that this is an "exploit" and needs to be reported. I'd say it's pretty good game management. If you don't need an exit and you're not actively looking for one, the game will not create one, keep it open and keep track of it while you're not looking for it. There are thousands of whs out there, why make things more complicated for the game to keep track of.
ReplyDeleteI have confirmed this behavior in our WH and this post is independent confirmation for me. I believe the same applies to all other sites that have not been scanned to 100%, but rather somewhere between 0 and 30%.
GL with your POS and if next time remember to time it to your primetime :-)
You can never isolate your self in a worm hole, there is always a chance of an incomming worm hole (K162) so you still have to keep an eye on the directional scanner.
ReplyDeleteplisken451, set one of your probes at max range and the pins will be easier to see. I also start my day by initiating warp to all the sites I have bookmarked, not worm holes. If I get a pop-up banner telling me about the site then I know the site is still there. If I don't get the banner then I know the site is gone and I delete the bookmark. That helps cut down on the number of bookmarks I need to check out.
I am in the process of checking out your theory. My static low sector wh connection U210 and dangerous wh T405 are there but not probed down. My roughly weekly high sector connection into me has closed and so I am going to work the wh without exciting any exits and using DOTLAN monitor any visitors.
ReplyDeleteI will keep you posted in a couple of days.
Nchek,
ReplyDeleteDoes this effect your spawn rate and length of time a site stays active if you start a warp to it?
If you scan to 100% and warp to it does that spawn the grid and start the timer for despawn, even if you stop the warp?
I for one would not even start to warp to the site for fear of starting the spawn timer.
I know that if I do not warp to a site that untouched it will last for a lot longer then if I fly to it. Right now I have several active Ladar sites that are over 10 days old.
Also for those claiming the WH Sig not moving ona timer is an "exploit", how so? It is already "known" that if you don't fly to the Origin end of a Wormhole that the K162 does not spawn. So why would it matter if the untouched WH stays in the same place or moves on a timer every 16 or 24 hours?
Now if you are suggesting that every Wormhole K162 end should spawn with the origin end, that is a whole different conversation and would change the dynamics of W-Space drastically. Also I agree this would make getting around W-Space far easier as there would be a lot more wormholes (dare I say almost twice as many as I have to imagine most wormholes are not activated daily?).
Mick
I would second Mick's comment and advise against warp-to-cancel efforts as that action WILL cause the site to despawn faster -vs- a sig that has never been loaded to grid.
ReplyDeleteRegardless if you 4-probe scan or 1-probe scan over the bookmark, the presence of the hit means it is still alive and ready for action, so no need to warp-to.
It takes me less than 5 minutes to re-verify every sig/bm after a downtime to establish the presence of anything new (and to delete BM's for despawned sites).
As a long-time wormhole space resident, I have not actually found this to be true about my wormhole exits (although I wholeheartedly agree with the fact it applies to all other signatures in my wormhole system). I am the main scanner character for my corporation, and several times I have logged on to face unwanted visitors in my wormhole system. I'll scan, and lo-and-behold, it's a new exit wormhole (and I often only get one a day, not two, so I know for sure it's my standard U210) that no one inside my POS has been to yet.
ReplyDeleteThe theory would make sense, though, to minimize unnecessary drag on server resources by only initiating the K162 exit and countdown of the wormholes beginning in wormhole space when someone loads it on the grid. But in my humble system, I haven't seen that as the case.
I broke the advice from HHGTTG, "Don't Panic", and overestimated the desire of the FFUK corp to demolish my POS. I bugged everything out last night, except for my probe alt, and a spare pilot driving a pOsprey. I started scanning for exits this morning, and just as I was finalizing my last signature, a FFUK pilot in a rifter appeared and podded my toon. Welcome to Eve. So, my pOsprey driver is stuck in J120252 with a perfectly operational (for the next 7 days) POS.
ReplyDeleteEven though I've more than likely lost the tower, this has been a great learning experience. It's not like CCP can write a POS tutorial for new pilots. So, it is with this knowledge that I will apply "lessons learned" to my next WH adventure after I plug some holes in my toons training.
I've neglected to mentioned this yet, but thank you SD for a wonderful, and engaging blog. I never would've attempted this without the knowledge I've picked up here. WH ops are risky, but the payoff is tremendous. Now, if we can just fix the price of Zydrine and Megacyte, I'd be happy.
Lidyan - thanks for the input. I do occasionally spawn new non-static, non-K162's in my W-space, but the same still seems to apply there - I do not think the corresponding K162 opens until you load grid.
ReplyDeletePliskin - sorry to hear about it. You could post a bounty in the CCP Forums (WTB) - I will put up 100M for a finders fee - post the system ID?
I'll contact you in-game, SD. I'm the guy that contacted you on 1/10 from Seattle.
ReplyDeleteOK, As per previous mail, Ive now done 48 hrs within WH without probing down my two exits to 100% Both have lasted longer than the usual 24 hrs and I have had no visitors to the WH since the high sector into my WH closed. From what I can see my findings back up yours Star Defender. Thanks for the information and the corp is changing its operations to at least a weekly entrance / exit and probably fortnightly when we can get everyone sorted.
ReplyDeleteThanks for some additional confirmation Amarrahh - and to be clear, probing the location does not load grid - just warping-to or warp-cancel. Assume you meant that.
ReplyDeleteThe idea of not warping to your wormhole is rediculous. If it were true no one could have gotten into a wormhole in the first place.
ReplyDeleteGreat thread with alot of interesting info. I especially liked the logic on scan ranges and the wh they represent...I will have to check that one out.
ReplyDeleteEntering my 39th day in a K3 with a static to null-sec.
ReplyDeleteThe question I have not really quite figured out yet is if a warp-to or a warp-through is what really opens up a k162 on the "receiving end"? From empire hi-sec it sometimes spawns k162 in here in my K3, but it has always correlated with having warp-ins on the dotlan map. So, the question is if a warp-to really "opens up" the connection, or if a warp-through is requirered? Any comments or thougts or "proof" of either theory?
Emmy - the consensus appears to be loading grid, which is what you are calling warping-to.
ReplyDeleteHard to prove, but most of the people that have studied this have confirmed that it appears the K162-end does not occur until you load grid, as evidenced by a complete lack of system traffic when (a) you do not load any WH grids and (b) no inbound WH's (i.e. K162) open in your Wspace.
well, in our C4 wormhole we have only one static exit to C5, we have warped to our H900 wormhole many times, but as long as we don't jump through it we get no traffic. This has been tested first by clearing our own system of RATS/ROIDs/GAS (no traffic), then warping to h900 hole, jumping through and finding a heavy occupied C5.
ReplyDeleteAlso another way of testing this is detecting K162 WHs, try and find a K162 wormhole where info says "this wormhole has not yet begun it's natural cycle of decay"
Also i've pin pointed a k162 wormhole opening within about 1 hour of it forming, then approx 7 hours later it closed. This must mean traveling through the wormhole opened the k162 exit.
In my experience the OP is correct, 2 members of the corp have been living in a WH for the last 6 months or so and we only ever warp to our N110 exit when we need pos fuel or to sell our sleeper goodies. We rarely get visitors and more often than not they turn up after we load the grid on the exit, only other time we see people is with the odd K162 incoming.
ReplyDelete"I have spent the last two weeks scanning and exploring extensively through successive wormholes.
ReplyDeleteOn over thirty occasions, I entered more w-space via a K162 then examined that system's data in DotLan maps only to discover absolutely zero activity over the past 48 hours.
Since wormhole lifespan is a maximum of 48 hours (ref. various dev blogs), I have deduced that K162 wormholes are generated regardless of any interaction on the static side".
When someone, hand on heart, can make the above statement then I'll be convinced. Until then, the jury's out :)
I wish I’d found your blog a month or so ago. BTW excellent blog, Thanks. I am working my way through all your postings, finding them enjoyable and very educational.
ReplyDeleteMy C2 has two static exits, one to another C2 and one to lowsec. Other than that I get the occasional K162 … mainly on weekends. If I scan and there are only two WHs (no K162) and I do not warp to either of them, then I get no visitors. If there’s a third WH it’s always been a K162, I usually get some visitors. If I ‘enable’ my static WHs by warping to them then I often get visitors. If I enable the WH to the other C2 I often get fleets of visitors who come clear out ‘my’ sigs and anomalies.
If I have three WHs it’s usually not that difficult to identify which is the K162 without warping to any of them. The K162 appears to resolve to 100% at a different probe scan range (e.g. 0.5AU cf 1.0AU) to the other two … I’m still exploring this theory but it seems true across probe types and scanner skills (far from max atm). The statics are also usually in the same spot as the previous static, at least for a few days, just with a different six-character-alphanumeric ID.
I cleared my first C2 radar site just b4 last DT. It’s only the fourth or fifth w-space site I’ve completed in my few weeks of w-system ‘ownership’.
It took me ages, with interruption due to a visiting proteus (I assumed a ship called “unfuckable” to be not friendly), and is probably not profitable compared with the several lvl4 missions I could have easily completed in the time … but it did give me a great sense of satisfaction. ATM I am using a drake – hurricane combo and seem to be donating squillions of T2 drones to the aether. I’m redirecting my training time now so I can try a domi/drake combo like you started … my ‘cane pilot flying the drake and my drake pilot flying the domi.
Having learned the hard way I now use a third character to sit, cloaked, on the grid of the anomaly / sig I am working. This stops them from disappearing if I have to warp out … which I still do fairly often, especially in the ‘cane.
My experience seems to be a little different to Rob's before me :-)
I'm still pointing people to this entry when they ask about keeping statics closed, thank you for the excellent guide.
ReplyDeleteHave noticed the same effect. Was a huge sceptic at first, but have recently told WH members to scan adjoining WHs, but NOT warp to them. What we have noticed is a huge decrease in wh traffic (we counted 1 ship this week, most probable from the adjoining WH to ours). We'll keep monitoring the situation, but definitely an interesting prospect in terms of Exit management if true.
ReplyDelete