Tuesday, September 29, 2009

EVE Online is not a PvP MMORPG

Heheheh. OK, a having a little fun with this post title and post in general, but felt compelled to comment on some recent rants on the EVE Blog Pack about "carebears" and "EVE is a PvP game".

I think this particular topic has been flamed (errr I mean covered) in more forums that I can count, but there still continues to be players all too consumed with their own perspective on Eve to actually consider a real discussion on the matter.

For newer players, I felt obligated to make this simple "perspective" post...so take it as you may.

Is EVE a PvP game?

Is EVE an Industrial game?

Is EVE a game where players can take on virtually any role from industrialist to pirate and face consensual and non-consensual PvP?

It cracks me up to no end to see moronic posts like this one, where one could argue there are more pirate tears going on here than carebear tears.

As an EVE player, you should expect to eventually lose your ships from combat (or griefing, which is not combat FYI), and although I would respect a player's feelings on losing a ship that cost them much time and effort in-game, I do agree that excessive ranting or crocodile tears are indicative of a little too much sensitivity over what amounts to a hobby.

However, to consistently insist that EVE is purely a PvP game to the extent that you overlook the obvious fact that there are more non-PvP careers to be pursued in EVE than direct PvP career paths, is just...well...simple minded.

EVE is what you make it, and the best part is that you are never locked into a specific role. You could grind missions, trade, mine, construct, transport, defend, expand, conquer, manage, educate, research, invent, role-play, explore and yes, even grief to your heart's content, and then decide to do something else the next day.

Can new (and veteran) players that are partial to aggressive PvP styles of play enjoy space combat?
Yes! There is no equal to EVE.

Can new (and veteran) players that are partial to passive, industrial styles of play enjoy the immersive nature of this incredible open market system without having to focus on PvP?
Yes! Again, there is no equal to EVE.

But don't shed tears, neither carebear/industrial nor combat nor pirate tears, when someone does something in EVE that disagrees with your particular passion.

I like this counter-post and specifically, Manasi's quote in the comments:

...To me a person with no honor is the one to eliminate. Pirates I know have honor, although there are some who sling that title around and have none. The attitude I have trouble with is "our play style is right, while your play style is wrong", most players I respect do not think this way, as I certainly do not."

Fly Safe!


  1. Griefing is by far the single best part of Eve - the fact that there is safe guards (CONCORD) but still the fact that you are not completely safe from being attacked keeps the game interesting.

  2. PVP is not just combat. People who play the market and build ships to sell engage in PVP as well. Updating market orders every 10 min playing the .01 isk game IS a player playing against another player. Most people engage in PVP, even if they never lose a ship.

  3. lol! i like bloggers arguing over blog posts. aaah freedom of speech and all that jazz, how lovely.

    nice post. keep up the good work.

  4. Kudos for actually presenting a balanced view of what the Eve universe is like. The earlier posts and their counters were all heavily biased.

  5. Anon post 1 - "single best part of Eve"? Heheheh I must obviously disagree. However, it brings up an interesting idea for a future post regarding what player's single-best-part of EVE may be. My vote would be the completely dynamic, unscripted nature of this immense universe that has been constructed. Which, ironically, partially supports the ability to suicide gank. LOL

    Anon post 2 - very good point - Market battles could also be considered PvP, but the context here was specifically about ship combat PvP. Well put though...

    Thanks Sage and Nashh. Shouldn't you two be rematching somewhere? ;-)

  6. Just wanted to say thank you for the post. This was much better written then my attempt.

    Be great to read your idea on eve mobile


  7. "My vote would be the completely dynamic, unscripted nature of this immense universe that has been constructed. Which, ironically, partially supports the ability to suicide gank. LOL"

    My point exactly :)

  8. Very good post. I think EVE is best described as a game where "shit happens"...sometimes it benefits you, sometimes it doesn't. I really can't understand the self-righteous mindset people get into about what players in this wonderful sandbox we've been given should or should not decide to do with something they pay for. To each his own. I respect everyone in the game with a good attitude, no matter what their play style. The rest, I simply find amusing.

  9. excellent post StarDefender, thats why i love your blog, by November i'll be in a WH i hope. i wrote a rather lengthly post on ".5"s blog on my thoughts on the topic.

  10. I agree that EVE is the best open game where one defines the 'win'for himself (or herself, sorry Mynxee)

    That is what makes describing EVE so hard. It is not one game anymore than a ball in the hands of 5 year olds lets you know what game they are going to do next.

    Walk a schoolyard at lunch or recess and you will see a microcosm of EVE gameplay in real life. (OK, maybe you aren't allowed to walk a schoolyard but trust me on this one.) There are griefers and team players, builders and breakers. Teams and solos. All there.

    Do they get told what game they should be playing? No. Games are offered but not forced. And think back, friends and neighbors, that was when we had fun. Eve brought it all back for us, fun, by our own rules.

    Mike Azariah

  11. I'm still surprised that satire was taken so seriously. Maybe you need to harden up and develop a sense of humour. :)

  12. Very clever observation Mike - ironically I actually have a 6 yr old daughter and agree completely about what you see before that morning bell rings - too funny.

    Thanks Mynxee and Jared.

    Alexia - Maybe the vernacular was not clear - "cracks me up" is synonymous with "amused", so no need to continue to tell people to harden up... :-)

  13. Well thought out and written post.

  14. Good post,

    It's funny that there are so many players out there that can't see the necessity of both type of players. Without the carebear player no PVP, as the market needs to be fed to function.

    And that it is the dynamics of the game that makes it fun.

  15. Boo you for putting the brakes on a really hot debate! :P just kidding. In reality, very awesome post.

  16. Nice post. I think a lot of people play Eve as a pvp game, but you are right, it really is the type of game you make of it with the ever present risk of some pvp. To me that adds some excitment even if I'm on my "carebear" alt.

  17. Thanks for the link and the included comment, i tend to be rather serious sometimes but it is usually with a thoughtful idea. I am glad you are able to present your thought in a very good way. The comments throughout have some very good point Mynxee's and Mike's to be exact.
    Good post! Keep em coming!

  18. Play styles differ, I don't see why people get upset about it. I would agree with "2nd post anon guy", all of EVE is PvP, regardless of combat. Nice post.

  19. Pretty quite with fan fest going on.

    So for your alt you have a drake. Is that your choice ship? What about a logistics/command ship for an alt?

    Just missing your posts

  20. FYI: CCP made a music video "Harden the fuck up"

  21. hey kinda off topic, but I'm looking for some experienced WH opinion. We are set up in a class 3 atm (its a little more than we can handle but thats another issue) and the sleepers are not going after our drones at all, we havn't had a single one even shot at let alone popped, we even went to using logistic drones and medium combat drones for the extra dps. Has anyone else experienced the sleepers ignoring drones lately?

    -Twg Memitim

  22. Twg - thanks for the comment - I have actually posted here about the applicability of using light T2 drones in Class 1-3 WH sites, which point out that you can add substantial DPS via light T2 drones with little or no loss rate of drones. However, my experience has shown that the loss rate of drones exponentially increases in C4 and above WH sites. I have actually noticed a slight increase in drone targeting in C3 sites over C1 or C2, but still not to the extent that there is rampant drone sacrifice ;-)

  23. kyvon - I got a total kick out of the video - I have enjoyed most of the fanfest videos created by CCP and thought this year's rap video was even better than last year's. The lyrics are just hilarious and agree with others that their production quality is getting better and better.

    I also love the irony on the title as it relates to this post, albeit a mostly separate context.

    Who would not want to work for CCP?

  24. Acinom - yep, I am still using my Drake + Domi combo. The Domi provides shield repping for the extremely rare case that I screw up on the spawn order and the Drake needs it, but otherwise I am just using the two for combined DPS - you could solo C1-C3. If I moved up to C4, then I would likely swap out for dual-repping Domi's or similar.

    Now what I am really looking forward to is eventually skilling up for a T3 ship....